EPISODE TWO - CHARLOTTE FOWLES - LIFE COACH AND DIVER - BE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE
Frankie Dewar 0:00
Yep. And today is the 15th of August. And we are somewhere between Shoreham and Peterfield,
Charlotte Fowles 0:08
I don't actually know where
Charlotte Fowles 0:09
Bramber, near Bramber
Frankie Dewar 0:11
Bramber sat next to it empty horses fields. And, and it's day one of the trip. Hello, and welcome to the extraordinary ordinary womxn podcast sharing life's adventures. My name is Frankie. And this is a podcast where I interview extraordinary ordinary womxn and non binary folx as part of a 3000 kilometers cycle, around England, Wales and Scotland. interviewing people out there myself, to show you that you don't just have to do it whilst you're young. You'll hear all about their adventures, and what they get up to, as well as the answers to my big life questions. Like what does authenticity mean? Did you have a clear sense of direction through life? And what advice would you give to your younger self? This is Episode Two, where I interview the incredible Charlotte Fowles a life coach, a diver and a hiker. She tells us all about her many, many adventures. we cycled together before the interview from Shoreham by Sea to Bramber. On the very first day of my trip chatting, all things life coaching, and my fears about setting off. We pulled off into a small bridel way to do the interview, you can hear the birds in the background. And there is an occasional car. But I hate that doesn't deter from Charlotte's amazing stories, and the powerful advice she gives
Frankie Dewar 1:49
So obviously, I know you and I know you quite well. But for people that have never met you before, can you just give it like a snapshot of who you are and what you do?
Charlotte Fowles 1:59
Charlotte Fowles 2:00
Hi, everyone. I'm Charlotte Fowles, and I am founder, of the executive adventurer, and I am a transformational and corporate executive coach.
Frankie Dewar 2:11
Amazing. Wow, that sounds huge. What does that mean more on like a day to day.
Charlotte Fowles 2:19
So what I find is usually my clients are successful people who have got "there" in inverted commas. And they suddenly are thinking, Oh, like, now what, you know, I've got the thing, I've got the stuff, I've got the promotion, I've got all the things I thought that would get me what I thought I wanted, and I'm okay. But. so might be looking for some more purposeful, they might be looking for a promotion, they might be not even know what they're looking for. But they just felt like they got something, they might be frustrated, they might be bored, they might be lost. And they might be feeling any of those things. And when they come to me, I help them figure out what is the "now what"
Frankie Dewar 3:05
And is that something you've done for quite a while? or How did you get into that.
Charlotte Fowles 3:08
So I've been doing elements of coaching my job for a number of years before that I was in communications, and I worked for central government for many, many years. I was press and events officer to Chancellor Gordon Brown many years ago. And then I worked in the Department of Health and I worked in the Treasury. So dealing with successful very, very high profile people on a day to day basis. But I was when I was leading teams, I was had a coach style to my management style. And I really, really enjoyed helping develop people and finding out what they needed and helping them get there themselves. And so this, this kind of led me to long story to be exploring coaching. And so then I trained a few years ago, and then set up my own business. And here I am.
Frankie Dewar 3:59
With that, can you tell me a little bit about like what the work life balance
Charlotte Fowles 4:03
looks like, of my job my life now. This is absolutely incredible. So I now have created exactly what it is that I always wanted. And one of my coaches said to me, she hated the phrase "work life balance" because A the word work comes first. And B work is just such a big part of life. So she's like, it's your life balance. And I thought it was a really interesting way of looking at it. And even for those of us who adore our work, you know, it's kind of it's part of our whole life. And we spend a lot of time with that. And I know you and I had a conversation before about writing lists of things that you want to achieve and goals and sort of manifesting. And I really feel now that I'm kind of, kind of there I live by the sea, which is I've always wanted to live by the sea. I'm live by sea a couple of times and then I was in London for a bit which I also loved. But now I moved back to the sea. And for example this week. I got up before My working day if you like my client day started, and I cycled down to the sea, which is only 15 minutes, I had a swim, I did my meditation by the beach, and then I came back and I had breakfast, and then I saw my clients and then the day goes in there. If I want to do that in the evening, I can do that in the evening. And I can have holiday whenever I like. And yeah, I've managed to create this, the life now that is one that I love every day. And last year, I managed to take, you know, six weeks to celebrate my 40th birthday, and to travel to five different countries, and to do all of this whilst I was on chemotherapy. So it's been a really incredible privilege to have all the opportunities and to work towards craziness. That sounds amazing what an
Frankie Dewar 5:51
incredible life What an amazing lifestyle,
Charlotte Fowles 5:54
I feel really privileged. And, you know, I've had a lot of incredible amount of what other people would call bad luck over the last 10 years. But I also acknowledge I, you know, I'm extremely, I have a lot of privilege to start with as well. And that doesn't negate any of the work that I've put in or any of the hard work. But clearly, you know, there's many things that give me an advantage. And I'm always extremely grateful. And I do quite a lot of work with myself to make sure I sort of acknowledge and take my privilege as much as I can.
Frankie Dewar 6:27
Yeah, absolutely. And it also sounds like you've put in a huge amount of hard work.
Charlotte Fowles 6:30
Yeah, absolutely. And I've enjoyed it. And I think it's, you know, work that doesn't feel like work. Like, that's what some people want. And I guess, again, I'm a little uncomfortable that because that suggests that work has to be something you don't enjoy. And I don't believe that it does. But it It feels like you know, there's huge purpose to it, and that it's useful to people, and it helps them and I get to share a part of their joy and their success. And I get to see them evolve. And and that is that was wonderful.
Frankie Dewar 7:02
you mentioned Chemo. And I do want to come back and sort of talk about that later. But before we do, can you talk to me a little bit more about like the outdoors and what you do in the outdoors.
Charlotte Fowles 7:13
Sure, so the outdoors, it's, it's just everything I love being outside. I will there wasn't necessarily always the way I mean, I always like to run out and have fun as a kid and stuff. But I didn't grow up in a household that did loads and loads of like camping and activity, holidays or anything like that we had great times. But you know, that wasn't so much a part of my upbringing. But I moved to Australia. I think it's 12 years ago now. And as part of being there, I wanted to experience a lot of stuff in it, it forced me to do much more outdoors, the things that I ever had. And I fell super, super in love with it. And I already did quite a few bits like hobbies before, but this was more incorporating into my my life. So I we bought an old 4 wheel drive. And I drove that almost across the entire of Australia through the outback. And there's only one or two five star hotels in the outback. So you have to camp. Which you know, before that I think I'd only the last time I pitched a tent was when I was in the Girl Guides and I was a rubbish guide. I was terrible. I got 00 badges. So it wasn't you know, it wasn't didn't come natural to me, but I just absolutely adored it.
Frankie Dewar 8:26
And how long ago was that?
Charlotte Fowles 8:28
So that was 12 years ago and then came back and fell in love with 4wheel driving fell in love with campaign fell in love with even more with outdoors. And yeah have done so many incredible adventures since then, like been so lucky. But again, I've sought this out for my for my holidays. And these days, I think that's more normal people have less of the kind of stay in one place type of holiday, although that's great for sometimes, you know, we all need that. But it was a lot less usual. Back when, and a lot less opportunities to do it. And people used to say that, Oh, your holiday sounds awful. Because I'd be like, Oh, I'm going trekking in Nepal. And then we've got like a jungle Safari. And then we're doing whitewater rafting and then coming home, they're like, That just sounds horrendous.
Frankie Dewar 9:15
That does not sound like a rest.
Charlotte Fowles 9:16
But it but it was you know, they say change is as good as the rest. And I you know, there's so much about the outdoors that has kept me sane over the last few years. And and also it's just, it's like it's like a safe space. It's very interestingly, people have asked me, aren't you scared on various things that I've done? And occasionally I have been, of course, because I've had to learn. But occasionally when I wasn't very well, it felt safer for me to run off into the night and bivy by myself, like in the middle of nowhere than to be in a room full of people.
Frankie Dewar 9:47
And why was that? Why do you think that was
Charlotte Fowles 9:48
at the time I was suffering with depression and I you know, I'm known usually it's quite sociable. I like to be around people and I like I like listening to people and I like being with people. But I remember being in this was just a family and close friends sort of event. And it felt like the most unsafe place ever. And like that was obviously, you know, my brain was poorly and I wasn't well. And, yeah, I just wanted to be where I felt free. And that's one of my biggest values is freedom. So both the life that I've created, and the reason I keep working towards it as a driver, it's a drive with me to keep getting more freedom and the outdoors feels so free.
Frankie Dewar 10:30
And what does freedom look like?
Frankie Dewar 10:32
So, freedom is, to me, is there's many things. So when I was a kid, I was, you know, I felt naughty a lot of the time because there was lots of rules about not doing this or doing this. And you know, and I wasn't a rule breaker for the sake of it. But it was like, if the things stopped me having fun or doing what I wanted to do, then I would just do what I wanted to do. I guess that was me and freedom, and I wasn't being intentionally bad. It wasn't like, Oh, look at me, I'm such a rebel breaking rules. It's like, this doesn't make any sense. Like, why can't I run around with my friend? Like, why? Why would you just do that? You know? And perhaps this Curiosity has also led me a lot into coaching, you know, to start questioning all these things that we've grown up believing are in inverted commas, "rules", and to start questioning them, and many of them rules that keep us safe, that's fine. But some of the other things we think of as rules are actually they're not rules.
Frankie Dewar 11:29
I agree so much. I always think that like one of the worst reasons to do something is because that's what you've always done. And that's the way it's done.
Charlotte Fowles 11:36
And people you know, people that make change are often the people that question the way something's done. And they're seen as weird questioning, and then suddenly they invent the next big thing, or, you know, you know, I had a really interesting phrase, and I was working with a coach. And I think it was one of his clients who said, the opposite of the opposite of courage is not cowardice, it's conformity. And it's like, my favorite thing to remember. That doesn't mean that if you want to do what other people are doing, you shouldn't, it just means that if you are doing it, because you think you should, that's, it takes a lot of bravery to step out of that. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 12:18
I'm going to come a little bit back into your journey. into the outdoors again, say, you went to Australia, and then you came back from Australia. And then did you jump straight into camping at home and being outdoors at home or,
Frankie Dewar 12:33
again, it was I saw it as easier to do in Australia, because all the weather's great, but actually myth everybody lived in a few different places in Australia, and I was there for a few years. And I traveled around a lot. And they have a lot of rain, you know. And in fact, one of the first times we went on our holiday obviously working really hard before we then got our next jobs and worked really hard was our let's take two three weeks, and we'll drive up the East Coast and, or camp and it will be great. started raining the day we left did not stop by one afternoon for three whole weeks, three whole weeks, it rained every day and camping in that rain was less than fun. I was not amused. What had previously stopped me in the UK like, oh, the weather's not great. I was like, Well, if I manage to survive that, then I can survive. So when I came back, I don't know that jumped straight into camping here, but certainly incorporate a lot more of the outdoorsy things. So I'd already done a lot of walking before we left Australia and did a lot more walking. And then did this deliberately took like holidays that were a bit more adventurous. So like the whole in Nepal, I've mentioned kayaking in Sweden, going for three weeks in Japan doing a whole variety of stuff, but you know, planning it and doing it yourself, which again, way back when wasn't as hurdle. So I tried to incorporate it wherever I could, and became obsessed with the weather. Because you know if it was going to be good, I was like, right, let's make the most of it. Let's get out and cycle or walk or do something go down to the coast where we lived in London. Yeah. So try to be out as much as I could.
Frankie Dewar 14:11
Amazing. And as you were like, sort of really just getting into it. Did you find them any sort of challenges or barriers?
Charlotte Fowles 14:19
barriers, you know, way back when some barriers might be cost of some of the equipment, some of the other barriers? You're mainly your own? Like, am I doing it right? Am I do Am I doing it wrong? It's just so interesting to me that there's so many clicks and there's so many groups and there's so many people that have so many opinions about what is right and what is wrong. And I didn't find that very helpful. Why love at the moment is that it seems to be a lot of groups that supportive and my focus will always be to say someone make sure that you're you know how to keep yourself safe and you know what you're comfortable with and You know, push it a little bit. But safety is important. There's some clear do's and don'ts. Leave No Trace, you know, respect the environment, all those things. But everything else is
Frankie Dewar 15:10
preference. Absolutely. We were chatting about this last night about how you can be obsessed with gear and having the perfect bag to cycle and then the perfect bank to go running and then the perfect bank to go hiking and actually just need a bag
Charlotte Fowles 15:23
like, yeah, they're definitely some things make things more comfortable. And that's great. But it's it is very interesting, because I'm a scuba diver. And I've scrubbed off for many, many years. So that's how I used to get a lot of my outdoor interaction as well to be around the water. And I've been doing that for a long time. But I learned to freedive as well last year. And what is very interesting is I love them both. And they provide some very similar things, but they are very different. But even within that, Pete some people are like, Oh, well, you must prefer one or the other. Or, well, if you once you've done that freediving, you never go out to scuba dive or what I'm saying? Well, I think that that is true, you know, and people act as though these things are truths. So they become truths for them.
Frankie Dewar 16:06
And then probably become true for other people. Because that's what other people say.
Charlotte Fowles 16:10
Within scuba diving, for example, there's people are prefer this, this people get very animated about this and everyone is entitled to their view. But you quickly sort of realize that very few things are. So black and white as to this is right. And this is wrong. Or this is the right way. And this is the wrong way. There's most things live in the gray, which we know anyway, but it's quite when you're new to something. I think it's quite difficult to have the confidence to question stuff.
Frankie Dewar 16:39
Yeah, completely. Scuba diving and free diving. They sound amazing.
Charlotte Fowles 16:43
Frankie Dewar 16:44
How did you start? Where did you go? what do you do ?
Charlotte Fowles 16:47
Oh, I I could talk about this forever I won't. If anybody wants to hear me talk about scuba diving. I did do like a q&a for adventure greens A while ago, and it's on YouTube. So yeah, you can look it up there. Where I just sort of wang on about how great. But it is amazing. I do really feel it's really, I feel with scuba diving, like I feel with coaching. So once I've had coaching and knew what it was and knew how magic it could be, it's how I feel when I'm diving, you see the most beautiful world, it's like you see things with new eyes, it's like another planet, you start thinking, oh my god, this is amazing. And I want to yell at everybody who doesn't dive Why aren't you down here? Like, I don't understand why? Why would you come and look at this incredible stuff and feel these incredible sensations. And I kind of feel a bit like that with some of the coaching. You know, it's like, why isn't everyone doing this? Why isn't everyone know how great things could be. And it's great to be passionate about it.
Charlotte Fowles 17:45
But I started in Egypt, I want to say 16 or 17 years ago, I went there because again, we all evolve, but I traditionally don't really like to be cold. And lots of people again, oh, you should dive in the UK like I don't want it sounds really cold. This is a long time ago. And also for me, I found that if you are a bit more comfortable in physically, it's easier to learn things that you know nothing about and you're less comfortable with. So you know, you're pushing one comfort zone at a time. And for me if I'm going to be shivering, freezing cold and thinking God, this is going to be over I'm not actually going to take in the information, I'm probably not going to enjoy it. So I wanted to give myself the best chance to enjoy it and to fall in love with it because I knew it would be a challenge. You know, because there's a lot of mind things that go along with being under the water and learning all the science and stuff.
Charlotte Fowles 18:30
So went to Egypt where the water was like 28/30 degrees, you know, and had an incredible instructor. And yeah, I found it quite challenging the first day. But it was so determined I wanted to do I just wanted to keep trying. And then soon as I got into the ocean, so you because you start in a pool, and that felt very claustrophobic to me. And it didn't it felt a bit weird. And I wasn't able to control my buoyancy. So I was going all over the place. As soon as I got into the ocean The next day, it felt completely natural. So yeah, Egypt is very special to me, because it's the closest place to the UK, you can get there relatively cheaply, you can dive reletively,. And they're all they're very strict about how you dive and protecting the marine life and doing it in a good way. And that's important too. Yeah, completely.
Frankie Dewar 18:05
And you mentioned at the start about chemo. Is that something that you're happy to talk about?
Charlotte Fowles 19:36
Yeah. So it's 15th of August now and I have been finished with chemotherapy for I think it's about three months. And I had to have a year's worth of chemotherapy, and it was in tablet form. So again, I was very grateful for not only all the treatment and the incredible doctors and nurses, but the fact that it was different to other forms of chemo because it meant I had a little bit more freedom. But it did mean I had to have it continue for a year, which sucked. I had gone to get a itchy mole checked out. And it turned out that it was skin cancer. And I had to have a big chunk of skin cut out of my back. And they took some lymph nodes from my armpits, my groin. And that was much more major operation than I thought it was going to be. That was the first of April last year. And and it turns out, they had spread into my lymph nodes are starting to spread. And it's really important if people listen to this, are into the outdoors, that you wear factor 50 the whole time and that you cover up I very fair skinned, I was always really careful. When I was in Australia, I will factor 30 or 50 all the time. And this still happened to me. So please, everybody, check your moles, please just go and get anything checked out is also one of the cancers that can spread to the brain quickest. So it's important to be skin safe and vigilant and Look after yourselves.
Charlotte Fowles 21:03
So that was, um, that was interesting, because I was turning 40 that year, and I had all these plans. And I had to redo all the plans. I still did an incredible amount last year and I in the last year and I went to amazing places and did amazing stuff. But certainly the chemotherapy made everything very, very difficult.
Frankie Dewar 21:22
What so places that you go to what were you able to do?
Charlotte Fowles 21:24
So before I started the chemo, I remember saying how long till I can trave again. After I'd had the operation. Yeah, but when will I be fit? When? When will this heal? Because I actually ended up with an open wound on the back because it had to heal itself. And they were like, Oh, you know this amount of time. So I think about seven weeks after and yes, you can swim in the sea. They said to me, so seven weeks after I was like right before I start chemo, I'm going to I'm going to go on holiday.
Charlotte Fowles 21:50
So went to Thailand. And and started and I learned freedive there, did some scuba diving there. Had a great time came back started the chemo. And I had no idea because it was tablet form I think I almost dismissed serious seriousness of it lol I just I just wasn't sure it was gonna be like, and the side effects are fairly horrible. But so we're going to list all the stuff I did. So I did the free diving, I hiked the length of Dart Moor with in two days with wonderful group of women from the love her world community. I also went to the states to go to a coaching conference. And while I was there, I hiked the trans Catalina trail, which did over five days solo by myself carrying all my staff. That's an island off the coast of LA. And then when I got back, I had a van and drove around California by myself for a week which I was petrified about because I had not really driven on the right hand side of the road before. And I'm very nearly didn't do it. And then I did it. And within 10 minutes, I was like, I don't know why I was worried about this is amazing. And had an incredible time. And then I basically redesigned my 40th birthday trip and I went to where did I start I went to Malaysia. And then from there, I went to Indonesia into an incredible place of Paradise called the biodiversity eco resort in Raja ampat in Indonesia. And I spent my 40th birthday there. And I was diving with manta rays and sharks and turtles and in I mean it was incredible. Go and check out my Insta the photos on there are just amazing. The footage I got I was lucky enough to see a really really rare albino manta ray as well, which was just ridiculous. I was it was perfection. After that. I went to Singapore for New Year's. And then I went to India and did some rite rite rite rite down in the southeast and did kayaking down there. And this incredible, incredible little place down there. And then I went again on a love her wild trip. I flew from there to Tanzania to Mafia Island and joined a research trip for whale sharks. So we were collecting data on whale sharks for 10 days. And yeah, it's just absolutely mind blowing. It's incredible.
Frankie Dewar 24:14
I mean, I was gonna stop you like three points in because I thought you're finished. I'm gonna be like, wow, how did you and then you got to Thailand, and I was like, wow, how did you fit that in?
Charlotte Fowles 24:25
Yeah, that sounds amazing. Yeah, it really was. I'm it really was like I made it happen. I was I was I felt lucky every day despite and you know, there's some side effects, despite what I used to call my favorite surprise diarrhea, like fatigue, fevers, ulcers, like all the side effects. I didn't know that this type of gene therapy can make your skin more susceptible to blisters. So when I hiked the length length of Dart Moor, I'd never had a blister before and all my years hiking. I it will be fair to say I don't think it was one single piece of my . bottom of my foot on my toes that wasn't covered in blister. Like the my feet were like one big blister, I lost toenails. It was just horrific. It was horrific. And then when I was in the States, I was paradine to all these companies and everything and got new boots. But the same thing happened because of the chemo. So I just had to my feet were like in shreds. They were blister. They were bleeding. Obviously, I'd lost my toenails already. And I just had to get on with it.
Frankie Dewar 25:26
I kind of got two questions that like how did you cope with those setbacks? And did they ever make you want to not do it?
Charlotte Fowles 25:32
Well, I had kind of come to terms with the fact that it particularly supprise diarrhea was, you know, if you have a cramps, like if you're going to have diarrhea, you think I've got to go to the loo that would often happen, but I wouldn't have it. So you didn't know when he was going to be caught out or not. So it could be any time and me and my sister's went to see pink and concert last July, who was incredible. So much, waiting to see her for about 20 years. And we went and the journey back home is 90 minutes yet with 90,000 people leaving the stadium. And I started to not feel great stomach wise. And I was sat on the tube and I was feeling really ill as well. Like, yeah, energy was low, and I was feeling really, really nauseous, very, very rough. And I just kind of was like, well, I literally can't get out of here. If I have diarrhea or accident, I'm just gonna have to sit in it. Like, because literally nothing else to do. And it was also it was really, it seems quite freeing.
Charlotte Fowles 26:34
Once you realize that, there's nothing you can do. That's it, I say it's quite quite a good motto for life. When the diarrhea of life comes along, you just have to sit in it, you know, focus on what you can do something about and there was nothing I could do anything about. So that experience really set me up for some of the troubles. I don't mean, I enjoyed her it was good. But I kind of I was like, well, I then if it happens, I'll clean myself up, you know, I'll do something I had a very close call in Malaysia, and I just made it to the loo but again, I think people some people said to me what something happens, what's if your ill away, I was like, well, then I'll be ill like, and it wasn't being blaze and I wasn't being stupid about it, you know, but it just I just didn't want it to stop me from doing the things I wanted to do.
Charlotte Fowles 27:24
You just never know, like, my best friend who I grew up with who's like my sister. She was called male. She's absolutely fantastic. But she died at 36 years old 36 and 27 days, and she died of breast cancer. And, you know, every day that I had chemo side effects or not, it was a day she doesn't get to have. And, you know, I just just wanted to do these things. Because you never know when someone's gonna come along and you're not gonna be able to do them. So it was my non negotiable. And I had you know, I packed on my 40th birthday, I was knackered because I was up two nights in a row with what they called the chemo fevers, which I hadn't had up until then I thought, oh, I've got away with it. I've had six months, I've been fine. I was not fine. But again, I was in paradise. And I and I dived with Eagle rays that day, they just happened to come along. And, you know, even spite everything again, on Instagram, I just everything I tagged was just gratitude. I was just so grateful.
Frankie Dewar 28:30
And how do you think your journey has shaped who you are?
Charlotte Fowles 28:33
in many, many, many ways. So I think my I call it my, my path, my evolution? Yeah, we're all constantly changing. And all the things that don't changes is wrong, we all change. But I sadly I had depression in my early 20s as a result of an abusive relationship. And then I had depression again as a result of bullying from work. And then I was well for a long time for about 12 years doing all the things that helped me keep healthy and body and mind. But those experiences started to teach me about, you know, the mind and the power of the mind and also gave me a lot more empathy and understanding for other people. And from that I was able to, you know, become even more curious about people, and not just what holds people back, but how you can help people and all that sort of things. So there was that. And then certainly, Mel, I've always been sort of go at full pelt, do things be enthusiastic. But certainly when I got to 36 and 28 days, I just remember saying every day is a day she doesn't get to have and she was an incredible, incredible person. And she started her own business. She was a designer, she was so talented. And she made the most of the things that she had. And I thought that she that was such a great example when I said in her eulogy, that was maybe her gift to, you know, show us that we can do that while still being kindness and light to everybody. So that shaped me Sadly, my dad died. It's 10 years ago this year when I returned from Australia, and that sort of settle for 10 years of trauma if you like. Because Mel died a couple of years After that my granddad died. Basically, lots of people around me started dying. And it was, again, it was a really difficult time. And during this time, I also had multiple miscarriages. And I had to have operations because they didn't carry themselves and they had investigations. And this is all very, very traumatic things. And it's now taught me a lot about resilience. So now as part of my work, I actually do webinars and talks on how to build, increase and stay resilient. And I've kind of had to, but I've been able to be still, during all those tragedies successful and happy, because I've used all these tools that I like to share with people.
Frankie Dewar 30:52
So amazing, are a thank you so much for sharing all of that. But like what are some of the tools that you take away from it.
Charlotte Fowles 30:59
So firstly, whatever we might like to think nobody can do it alone. So your support is so important. And whether you need whether you that's your family, your friends, your colleagues, your therapist, your mentor, your doctor, your consultant, or coach, like if you if you need support, and you can buy it in, buy it in, like, look for support. And people like to help so ask, and then we know like to ask, but everybody likes to help, I find. And if you think someone has got something that will help you then ask them and you'd be surprised how many times people are happy to help you. And so drawing on those things and think about all the resources that you do have, in terms of that network, is really, that's always an eye opener, when people go through and they start writing all this stuff. And they realize, wow, actually no, so much.
Charlotte Fowles 31:49
Another tool is like a thing I like to remember is that you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. So choose them wisely. You know, if you need what you need, and what you need is encouragement, then choose people who encourage you, there's there's a few tools which don't really lend themselves so much to audio, but that you know, there's that there's sort of couple of diagrams and things like that. And, again, exercises you can do that I do with my clients, but one or a tool that I really, really like, I heard the analogy, in a book by a man called Michael Neal, who's a great coach, he talks about thoughts. And he talks about thoughts are literally just thoughts. And we say we know this, but none of us act like that. Because we all follow the train of thought wherever it's going to take us be that good or bad. And he says, you know, thoughts, nothing happens to them unless you give them energy. And he uses the analogy of thoughts are like a tea bag, they just sit there, they're just they're they're dry matter in a cup. But when you put energy, in this case, boiling water under it, it becomes something entirely different. So might become a refreshing beverage. That's a great analogy, because you can see how something completely changes. And I like to take it a step further and think about Well, yeah, you can either then drink that nice hot beverage, like if you follow the train of thought and give it good energy, oh, you can take that boiling water. Which is what a lot of us do, we a thought is there and it might not be a good one, you give it energy, you give the negative thought energy. And then you're basically you've just tipped boiling water over your body,
Frankie Dewar 33:22
you start thinking about that one time that you didn't lock the door. And then now all of a sudden, you're thinking about the fact that your house is probably burning down.
Charlotte Fowles 33:29
And that the Spiral Spiral image is good as well. Because if you think of a circle in the middle with circles going outside of it, you know, you can spiral up or you can spiral down, but the thing in the middle won't change. So whatever that event is, that's happened to wherever that thought is, you have no control over that. But you can control every other layer after that. And there's quite a few things if people are interested to look on the internet around. It's called the spheres of influence. So again, focusing on the bits that you have some agency or control over that's that's a really helpful tool, for sure.
Frankie Dewar 34:02
I've got a question. I'm not sure if it's necessarily going to be relevant to your story or not, but I'll still be interested to ask it. But do you ever feel like you've been going against the grain sort of in your lifestyle and in life choices?
Charlotte Fowles 34:15
Yeah, like now. So I, I do because one of my one of my most one of the phrases I find most interesting is when people tell you, you're so lucky. And I find that very funny, sometimes and ironic, because I've been extremely unlucky. things that happened to me that, you know, I've had no control over and have been you could be characterized as bad luck. But now people would look at my life and say, Oh, you're so lucky. And as you mentioned earlier, it's a series of choices that I've made that have been very much against the grain. And I like I said, I acknowledge I'm extremely fortunate and extremely privileged in many ways, but I have had to take those choices. So to take a leap to self employment from basically was the safest job you could ever have. I was in the civil service. And I went to a part time, self employed role as a consultant. And, and that was incredible. It was really great. But so many people like, oh, oh, you leaving?, you know, and they find it really worrying that I was going for something that was in inverted commas uncertain and didn't have certainty and, and all that sort of thing. So that's an example. That's kind of the lifestyle that I choose to have. It's not usual for everybody. And I like to say remind people that everything's made up. So you think that the standard amount for example, holiday time in the UK is four weeks a year? Because that's statutory? Right? Well, that's been made up, you could have eight weeks, if you want, and many people have six as part of their job. I think eight weeks is like minimum for for healthy rest and stuff like that. But everyone is different. But people used to get zero holiday.
Charlotte Fowles 36:00
So just remember that when you're starting to do something that is different, or going against the grain. That's just somebody made it up once and it just became the norm. But you can do that differently. You know, it's really interesting fact that I heard, which I haven't fact checked, is that people used to years and years and years ago, there were lots of christenings on Christmas Day or Easter, because that's the only days that people go off in the year. So babies get like zero holiday. And then it was normal to have maybe one day a week, and then the weekend was invented a and nowadays, and now I think loads of people are finding, you know, with COVID, the working week, nine to five in an office is no longer. You know what, why should you? You know, and people are questioning it before they would just accept it. And we all do. We all absolutely do. But one of the best skills I think people can develop is curiosity. And where did some work? Where did a pattern start? Why did that start happening? And if I wouldn't do something different, not? Why shouldn't I? But how could I?
Frankie Dewar 37:00
What is it we're still sort of thinking about your journey a minute, but what is one thing that you know about yourself now that you wish you'd known earlier,
Charlotte Fowles 37:09
That I am enough. Like, with everybody's spectrum of flaws, and talents and skills, and all the rest of it, no matter who you are, you're enough. And you're enough, no matter what grades are again, and you're enough, no matter what job you have, you're just enough just to exist is enough. And that you are a value. wanting to do things of value is great. But just to know that even just as a being in this world, you deserve everything, without even doing anything towards it. Just your very existence on the earth means that you deserve happiness. And I know that sounds really deep, but that has changed everything for me. Because I no longer think our our only deserve it. If I do this, or you know, it's been like a big bike ride. And I'll treat myself with an ice creams, I've earned it like, you know, you can just deserve things, many things, because you are a human.
Frankie Dewar 38:08
Yeah, and it's not just ice cream is it it's like love and money.
Charlotte Fowles 38:12
It's your worthy respect , I'm worthy of I think there's a word that people like to use abundance, but you know, I'm worthy of love, I'm worthy, I'm enough, like I don't, there's nothing I need to be do or have to deserve it more. Like if I want to improve a skill, I'll improve the skill. If I want to learn something, I'll learn something. But that doesn't make me a better human being. That just makes me a bit more knowledgeable or a bit more skilled.
Frankie Dewar 38:41
The next section is kind of all about like emotions and feelings. So to start off with, I kind of want to talk a little bit about like, authentic self. And, like for me, I kind of feel like every year I get older, I get like a little bit more my authentic self. And then I look back and I'm like, Oh, you didn't know anything? Could you stop by just saying well, authentic self means to do.
Charlotte Fowles 39:13
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It's what I like to call it is the massive and great big unlearn. So you're basically you know, we're born as authentic selves. And then we learn all these things, we learn how to be in the world in which we're born into. And none of those layers that we place upon ourselves are necessarily our authentic selves, those how we've learned to be pleased people how we've learned to be to get on in work or how we've learned to be to keep a boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or wife. All these things are things we've learned to think we need to do or be. And you're so right when you unlearn them. It's like you're saying I learned a bit more about yourself or what you're actually doing is taking off a layer of what you learned that actually wasn't true. Again, Michael Neal, he talks about people being diamonds. And I like to, again take a stage further and say like, it's as if we're all perfect diamonds. We're all shiny. We're all perfect except diamonds are normally you have to mined them because they're normally under layers and layers and layers of rock and sediment, rock and sediment starts out as generally crap, right? So we just pile crap upon ourselves for years. Not bad, not with bad intentions, but with other people's expectations and with society's should send all of this and you start to like I said, before you start to question you start to get curious, you start to see what could happen if you've decided to think something differently today. And you start to clean off that sediment, you start to chip away there and your diamond starts to shine through.
Frankie Dewar 40:50
I love that I've read the same analogy. I actually read it in like Paul McKenna's, how to change your life in 7 days
Charlotte Fowles 40:56
Michael Neal was his coach.
Frankie Dewar 40:59
And I really love in his book, he uses the analogy that you've got a diamond and then you like, throw shit at it. And then like, the person you are when you're in public is like you trying to paint nail varnish over the top of the shit?
Charlotte Fowles 41:11
Yes. Well, you know, in communications, which is my first career, we've talked about, often you will be polishing turds. And one of the phrases, you know, especially in some some government announcements, and one of the phrases I used to love was you can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter used to make me laugh a lot
Frankie Dewar 41:34
do you feel like you're living as your authentic self? Now?
Charlotte Fowles 41:37
Frankie Dewar 41:38
Have you always?
Charlotte Fowles 41:39
No, this has been maybe two or three months. And I'm now 40 and a bit. And now I am. And that is you asked me earlier what freedom means me that is the biggest freedom. I cannot even express how incredible it is to accept yourself for who you are. And then live that way
Frankie Dewar 42:06
from that, and then move on to bravery. What does bravery mean?
Charlotte Fowles 42:10
So I think I mentioned earlier, you know, the kind of the, the opposite of courage is not that you're a coward Is that you, you know, is the conformity. And it's really difficult to be brave in this world. You know, our brains are designed to keep us safe. You know where we are. There's a great book, which many of you will know called the chimp paradox by Professor Steve Peters. And he talks about in the truth, if your chimp you know, to go outside of that is danger. And so you conformed and you want to stay in the truth because you're stronger together. And that that sort of works for our brains, you know, we're programmed to sort of suss out fear and to keep ourselves safe. And so it can take a lot of bravery to actually step outside what we think we should, which I hate that word should be doing. And many, many people are not lucky enough to have good family or good role models or to have good bosses or good friends or things like that. And that and then that could be a real challenge. I think we all know, we've all heard stories about kids or adults, you just find one person who believes in them. Everybody needs one person who says I believe in you, and then that helps you be a bit brave.
Frankie Dewar 43:23
Frankie Dewar 43:25
Did you describe yourself as brave?
Charlotte Fowles 43:26
Frankie Dewar 43:29
Can you tell me about a time you've been brave?
Charlotte Fowles 43:32
So one of my biggest fears, is fights. This is a very literal sort of bravery here. But it was very comforting to know that we're only born with two fears, fear of falling and a fear of loud noises. So all other fears can be unlearned, which is very, very encouraging. But my fear of heights of just awful, absolutely awful. But a couple of years ago actually went to Montenegro on a holiday weekend holiday and I was canyoning and rafting. And I remember suddenly realizing that canyoning meant jumping off stuff, like high staff. So why did I bought this I can't do what I thought it was like, I think that sounds cool. And maybe i thought was going to be upselling. And they're like, Oh, you can upsell down the jumps if you want. If I Yeah, well, I'm gonna do that. They were like, they said, oh, there's gonna be like nine jobs between a couple of meters and like 11 meters or something. I was like, that's just not happening. That's insane. I should also say that something that happened to me which increased my fear of heights was actually after I had miscarriages. I wanted to focus on what my body could do rather than what it couldn't do. And I wanted to talk about miscarriage because it's such a taboo sort of subject, and I wanted to raise awareness of it and I want to raise money. So I did the tough mudder which is a half marathon horrible obstacle course, to raise money raise over 3000 pounds, the miscarriage Association, which is this tiny charity, and they got really, really fit like you know Fit, fit fit to do it, except half a mile from the end, they had a faulty obstacle and I fell nine foot and I broke my leg in two places. So my positive thing turned into Being not being able to walk for three months. So that then compounded my sort of fear of heights and falling like even walking downstairs was scary to me because of the pain of I fell nine foot, you know, it was, it was horrific. It sounded like a ball being hit by a cricket bat and my leg was hanging off like it was just horrible. So that didn't help with when I was somewhere high or think about jumping off.
Frankie Dewar 45:36
So did you go canyoning after having already broken your leg?
Charlotte Fowles 45:39
Yes, but it was fixed. So I want I want to say the leg break was maybe four or five years ago, and then the can me was two years. So yeah, it was a journey as well, for me to really face some of that fear. And I wanted, I didn't want to be someone that was scared of something. I never used to be like walking down the stairs or just jumping over a fence. So I tried to train myself to be a bit braver each time in my recovery. But this was just something I hadn't really thought into. And then I jogged every single job. I know there's video again, I think there's a clip on my Instagram way you can hear me and the guys give me instructions. And all I'm saying is okay, okay, okay. Okay. Okay, I just got this like, and I just did it. I just did it. And I, and then after I'd done that one, the other ones were not easier. That's a myth. And in fact, when we did the last one, I thought that you know, cuz the adrenaline is quite, there's quite a lot of adrenaline spikes and that sort of thing. But I was so so proud of myself. I don't, I don't know other than just kind of went for it, you know. And then after that, my sister's friend who she went to school with, when she was 18. She got a very rare spinal disease and was paralyzed from the waist down. And she was trying to raise money to buy what they call an exoskeleton, which is like a device you strap onto yourself, and people can walk again. But they're 80,000 pounds. Yeah. And so she'd been doing fundraising for like, eight, nine months. And she said, I'm gonna abseiled down the spinnaker tower in Portsmouth, which is like, 170 meters or something. I know that, right? Yeah, it's huge. It's really tall. And she was gonna do it, but she can't walk. So she was gonna have a special harness. But she was going to do that. And she asked lots of people if we would also do to help her raise money. And this comes down to another really excellent tool actually about trying to do things that might scare you. And sometimes it's easier when the goal is not about you. So if the goal must be bigger than you, so I said to my sister, if you do it, I'll do it because she's petrified of heights as well. And she then said, Yeah, I'm doing No, that means I have to do it. So we did that. That was about 18 months ago. Now. I basically observed out I nearly had a little cry at the top like, it was, it was not fun. But again, I kept thinking, if she can do it, she'll walk again. If she can do it, I can do it. You know, you say
Frankie Dewar 48:04
it's not fun, but you're saying a huge smile on your face right now.
Charlotte Fowles 48:07
It was funny because my sister and I, we did it you could do it together. I mean, I'm so proud of myself I did it I can't describe how scared of heights I I still am a bit but how much I was. And you know, we were both having little cries at the top before we sat off and got the video and then we decided that we would sing all the way down. So it's a really nice memory that I have with her because we were singing like Bohemian Rhapsody and other sort of like Bon Bon Jovi and stuff just to keep ourselves distracted from the fact that it was. just horrible. But I would like to I think I'd like to do it again and do it in the less scared way. I know I can do it now. So yeah, very proud of myself doing that we again raise a lot of money and she's now got this device and she walks which is great.
Frankie Dewar 48:55
What does Happiness mean to you What does happiness feel like?
Frankie Dewar 48:59
It feels feels like peace. I think there's many layers of that. But you know, you've you've talked about your authentic self and when you get there it's peace. Now it doesn't mean everything's perfect doesn't mean that crap won't still happen to you. But it does mean that you know that that doesn't make you wrong. Or that's not because you're bad or that you don't need to be do or have anything else in order to to have peace. Because you know, most emotions they don't even happiness like you know it comes and goes and things like that. But definitely peace and, and the water, the sea. I love the ocean. That's why I spend so much my time diving. And when I was diving after recovering from my third bout of depression, which is very severe I remember saying it was like an active meditation. You know, your brain is so obsessed with taking all this color and this incredible stuff. There's no space for other stuff. And I think there's a charity that work with ex servicemen and women who have PTSD, and they take them dive in. Because there's an article on the BBC, and one of the chaps said, the only place where my mind is free of the trauma. And now my mind is not in trauma anymore. But certainly, it's that real deep sense of peace that I have when I'm diving. Does, that's my happy place.
Frankie Dewar 50:38
Thank you so much. We are kind of like, nearing the end, but not quite. So I've got a section that is more about women, and then a section on advice. And then that's us just wrapping up to go. What perceptions of women do you think they are? And how do you think they match up to your reality?
Charlotte Fowles 51:00
Of course, that's like an endless question. There's so many perceptions. So so many, many of them are not helpful. Problem is any sort of perception is that immediately put some sort of label on it. And labels I say labels limit you, they limit me they limit everybody. And people we like to label we like to know what something is. So put it in a box, you know, but that's it, it doesn't really kind of limits people, because your version of something or perception of woman is not the same as mine. But it will still be still be caught up in a in a boundary of some sort. years ago housewife, for example, you know, it's a label, as opposed to just this is Julie and she just is you know, it's like she has to be something, you know, they do say don't they don't ask people, what do you do? They say it's kind of like you're defining somebody by, you know, their, their role they happen to be painful or not. Which is why often when we would reply, oh, I'm just a housewife, or I'm just a mom or whatever. And of course, that's, you know, they're probably incredible people, everybody. Yeah, to the point about not asking people what they do, but asking people, Hey, what are you working on at the moment gives you the opportunity for somebody to talk about their hobby, not necessarily their job if they want, but we're sort of trained to think that way. Other percentages of women, I don't know, I find the motherhood one really tricky because of my history. And when we were experiencing lots of miscarriages, people would always inquire much more of me than they would have my husband, like, for example, when people would ask me, Do you have kids? And I would say, No, they'd be like, why not? Like, often? That was the question. Or when you go into when are you going to have kids as one of my favorites is like presumption, and clearly I wanted them. And you know, I'm still childless now, but used to annoy my ex husband, because he would say, but nobody asks me. They just go Do you have kids? You say no, that Okay, cool. And, you know, there's been film stars, we've talked about this before, and other famous people where, you know, people ask them, oh, how do you juggle motherhood with blah, but they hardly ever asked men that. And also, that's, that's not really great for men either. Like, if we're talking equality, which we all want, then we're assuming men like going off and leaving the kids and not getting a chance to play as active a role like, and you know, Society here is not really set up for much shared as much. I mean, I'm happy to say things are changing. But you know, that's, that's not great. I know, loads of guys would love to stay and be part time. And we had some friends, a couple. And they both They have two children now. And when they had the one, they both went part time and sort of crossed over so they could both parent the same amount, and then still work. And for her, no questions for him. Oh, why are you doing that? Even from enlightened? They're their own friends? What What would you do all day, but nobody ever asks a mum who's at home with kid, what do you do all day?
Frankie Dewar 54:07
Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's interesting, because you kind of think that that would be something that people would have asked like 10 1520 3040 years ago, and maybe not so much. Now.
Charlotte Fowles 54:18
I think the problem is, as well when you like I say your average of the five people spend the most time with and it is important to seek out different views and opinions and voices and perspectives. But when you surround yourself with people who are thinking in this way more, I would like to see a more enlightened way and more sort of for equality and things like that. It's a surprise when you meet people that are not like that, but actually I think we need to realize that a vast, vast amount of people still think in very, very traditional gender roles, or just gender itself, let alone gender roles and expectations and things like that. So you know, you have you have the working mom, like does everyone say I'm a working Damage like. And again, it's so offensive to men to you know, the stereotype of all dads got the baby, everything's going to be terrible. It's like, why men and women are very different, like people are different, but doesn't make one better or one worse. It's, I find that really odd.
Frankie Dewar 55:17
Yeah. And I think you'll also nailed it there by saying that people are different, that's something I always try and come back to. And people say, Oh, yes, but men and women are different. I'll be like, no, but people are different.
Charlotte Fowles 55:29
So and especially now, but you know, again, we're more aware that some people don't identify as either of those, you know, traditional genders. So what is where does that leave them then like, you know, is kind of, if this is for that gender, and this is for this gender? Well, what about if you don't think either of those are appropriate? Everybody else? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Frankie Dewar 55:53
And do you see yourself represented in outdoors media? So either clothing or shows or films?
Charlotte Fowles 56:00
Um, well, again, and this isn't a good thing, I guess is that, you know, I am a straight white woman. So there are more representations than other people who looked different to me or who are different to me or identify different to me. But there's still woeful lack. I was interested, I was looking at a speaking agency's website the other day, because I do some public speaking, I was just co doing a bit research. And I went to the adventurers section. And I didn't total out by bet you can guess what most of them look like, you know, and I think most of the people there are incredible people. Like I'm not taking anything away from them as people but straight white man, they all were almost exclusively, I think there was a couple of women, I think there was one person of color. And don't tell me that there aren't other people out there doing stuff. I mean, tough girl podcast, hello. Like, you know, there's plenty of people. It's just, they their stories don't get asked enough. Or they don't people don't seek them out, they just lazily go for the thing that already is there.
Frankie Dewar 57:11
And what impact do you think that has?
Charlotte Fowles 57:13
I think it's got a huge impact. Like, it's really, really difficult to imagine something for yourself, if you can't see it, when you're a little person, you know, or even if you're a grown up person, but particularly in our developmental years, I remember having a disagreement with an ex boyfriend once about representation. He was criticizing Serena Williams, for what we talked about role models, and he's like, Oh, I don't use good role model, because I'm talking about various behavior. And I said, it's funny that because I remember reading john McEnroe his book and saying that he was a legend. He had bad behavior, too. I said, What you failed to appreciate is that no one is saying that outbursts here and there, you know, I mean, it's natural part of being human. But we're not saying that's the best behavior you can demonstrate. But actually, her commitment, her drive her passion, there's a lot of amazing stuff that she's done. I said, You are not a small black female child, who's looking for someone that looks like them. You know, who's looking for a hero, you know, you're not your heroes everywhere. You know, and he was in the army. So it's like, You're, you're surrounded by them. This is this is there the whole time. My best friend, the incredible and amazing Irene Moore. When Whitney Houston died, we were talking and she said she felt incredibly sad, because she said when she was growing up, she was almost the only person on the telly or one of the first people that she saw that wasn't a white person and she could identify with, and it really brought home to me how much representation matters. They say you can't be what you can't see. Right?
Frankie Dewar 58:48
Yeah, completely. And from that, do you have any female role models?
Charlotte Fowles 58:52
My mom, I'm very, very lucky. She is an incredibly generous, incredibly kind, incredibly loving human being. And she's four daughters. So I'm very lucky. I came from a very strong female household. And, you know, I'd like to say all decent humans. So she's done an incredible job. And no, both her and my dad together. And, you know, she didn't grow up in a world where you could be anything you wanted to be either. You know, when she I remember she became a teacher because she was like, well, there wasn't a lot of choice. So yeah, she's, yeah, she has a lot of grace as well. And a lot of style. And yeah, so I'm really lucky. I was surrounded by strong women as I was growing up. And other role models kind of why I mentioned pink. I think she's incredible. I think she's great. I'm very lucky that my friends are also I would say that my role models like I mentioned, Irene who's just incredible. My best friend Mel, obviously, who's not here anymore, but the way she lived was Very inspiring. And my other other friends, Katherine, who is mom to three incredible children. And she's now a children's counselor. And she's she's incredible, too. And then my friend, Francis as well, like, I think they're all. They're all my role models.
Frankie Dewar 1:00:18
Sounds like you've got a great team.
Charlotte Fowles 1:00:20
I do. I'm
Charlotte Fowles 1:00:21
really lucky. I've got the best crew.
Frankie Dewar 1:00:24
And we are very nearly there. I've just got two ish more questions. What advice would you give to your younger self?
Charlotte Fowles 1:00:36
whether it would be different to give to anybody really, I was quite lucky in that my mum gave me some good advice when I didn't know what I wanted to be. Unlike some people I didn't know where I wanted to go, or what to take her for to go to uni or any of that. And she was saying to me, when I was trying to choose my a levels, I think or GCSE issues that will pick things that you enjoy or good at mainly, some because it's most likely you'll end up doing something in that area. I think that's good. That was a good piece of advice and links to that. My advice, my younger self would be to be as much as possible to, to find out who you are, what you love, what your passions are, and to put all your energies into them. You won't go wrong them. But that you won't go anywhere that isn't right. and eliminate the word should as much as possible. Do you find yourself saying I should be then it's a sign that as they say you're shoulding all over yourself? And that that probably has come from somebody else?
Frankie Dewar 1:01:42
Is there a time when you didn't follow that advice?
Charlotte Fowles 1:01:44
Oh, yeah, most of my life. Like most people, you know, I should go to university. I didn't go straight off. I went later. But after I'd taken time to figure out I've started working all you know, I didn't like this and what what will I do all the rest of it? I should lose way I should look like this. I should want those things. I should stay married. You know that there's quite a lot of things and they haven't caused me. much joy, the thoughts. You know, regret is mostly pointless. You can learn from a mistake for sure. But it's done. Just make sure you do that learnings rather than sitting in like shame is that doesn't help you.
Frankie Dewar 1:02:37
Thank you so much.
Charlotte Fowles 1:02:38
That's great. It's been really, really lovely conversation and really deep in a really good way. Getting to the heart of what is important.
Frankie Dewar 1:02:53
Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I left Charlotte to cycle on to Petersfield. But with pouring rain, and a broken and bike. Things didn't quite go to plan. I'll drop a link to where you can read all about it in the show notes. Charlotte's words if I am enough, definitely helped me through and I carried on to my next interview the following day. In the next episode, I interview Soraya ops manager x expedition, an all female sailing team, a climbing instructor and having built her own bamboo bike. Soraya is an all around lover of the outdoors. I couldn't have asked for a nicer a warmer person's talk to you after a very shaky start. And I can't wait to share our conversation with you. If you've enjoyed this episode, please help me out by telling a friend or recommending someone else to listen. And don't forget to rate review and subscribe. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, keep on being extraordinary